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Second Chance; Remove from server?
Topic Started: Feb 10 2012, 09:38 AM (1,362 Views)
{KN} Rigger
Brigadier General
Metal is still on his kick of wanting “Second Chance removed from outré server below is a list of his arguments – I am posting this so that the Clan can have a chance to express your feelings about second chance. (I can see his point, but do not agree)

As in my reasons why I suggested it.
Metal: well I don't play much black ops as you know so i guess it’s all up to you guys
Metal: firstly I’ve already said that the perk isn't really 'natural' in a sense. you expect a player to go down once killed, not dropping to the ground with a pistol and being able to be revived. also i believe that a playing that is going down is immune to damage till he goes fully down.
Metal: also your server has many players, its an international server, which I’m sure you'll agree
Metal: that would mean players with 100 and above ping
Metal: let’s say a player with <100 ping going down to second chance, sometimes a higher ping player doesn’t have the chance due to latency sure that’s fine,: you can reword it if you like.
Metal: my third point is that as you know people do use what I call 'rage' kits like m60 spamming thru walls. I’m seeing a good amount of m60 players now using second chance. Say a player rushing a m60 player high chance he'll get hit from the spamming. the guy will down the lmg user when his low on health and the second chance just basically finishes the player off, when he rightfully should get the kill
: 5th is that lately I’m noticing a noticeable increase in players using it. 1-2 players might be irritating but i can put up with it. this week I’ve seen games that had like 7-8 players using it. 4 on each side
How much fun is it when half of the team does not just die naturally? Because from what I’m seeing sometimes after these games the people not using 2nd chance just leaves
having unrestricted play style is good in a sense, but sometimes people just try to 'break' it. if you know what I mean
i saw a guy, tubing with 2nd chance
say he tubes and misses and leaves the guy with low health. goes to 2nd chance and gets the kill. i don't feel the kill is rightfully deserved also the fact that players can’t be killed when they're falling into second chance, just means that players waste ammo on such players and sometimes you run out of bullets and you die to the player. That’s hugely unfair
Lastly, the fact that the developers themselves admitted the inclusion of second chance was a mistake. Even the developers are saying so themselves
I’ve been playing mw3 these days, and there is final stand in the game. I had tons of deaths that were undeserved because of that
1 player going down in second chance can be dealt with all the time
but what about 2-3 player you see in a row using it? Unless you’re using a lmg I don’t see how you can survive that without reloading
I usually spell a full mag on 3-4 players. Normally 3
:wallbash:
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Crinus
Sergeant
[ *  *  *  * ]
I never have liked it either.

I like to propose Tactical Insertion being removed until the bug for it is fixed, even when it was working properly it becomes one of those small objects flashing red that gets buried in places you cant shoot, it causes the spawns of a game to really go into the toilet, especially in Domination and CTF.

One of the things I will defend about last stand, the fact I dont use it, is its a waste of time, you can never get into position to aim your gun at much anything unless you wide open on a flat surface, it was more trouble than what it was worth IMO. I venture to say 20% of the time it becomes really useful.

My case against Tactical Insertion aint as much about the place where the user spawns at, but more to the fact in modes like Domination and CTF it completely immobilizes 1 team to spawn in a place that pretty much hands the other team a free flag or 2 at certain points. Not to mention in CTF, Tactical Insertion allows for a respawn timer of no more than 5 secs meaning they are not on the global 15 sec timer but instead are on a 5 second global timer for TI users.

I cant confirm Tactical Insertion is 5 seconds respawn timer at most, but with how much Ive seen it used lately in games like CTF, something has obviously changed about it, ive noticed TI users in CTF never stop coming and have seen 1 guy spawn about every 5 secs or less from it in CTF.

The spawn mess I talk about sometimes aint related to TI use, but most of the time it is. Lets take the map Radiation as a prime example of a map not fit for Domination or CTF, you pretty much got 2 flags at the back of the base on both sides in the center, one in the middle in the tunnels. Where you think 1 team may spawn at? Way off to the sides in the warehouse, that is about as ridiculous as it gets and spawns like this have determined outcomes of flag games like this. Another map that falls into this category is Villa, its bad enough that I think its Flag A and B is real close to each other, Flag C is in a really retarded place, whoever starts out on Flag A side in Domination has pretty much won that game unless the other team plays it smart and goes after A without trying to hold on to C and B. But the point of is the spawns on this can put you way back there to the side of the map past that fountain. Meaning your team is going to lose something because the spawn system couldnt place you close to something you controlled.

Sometimes this is not TI related, most times its what drives the spawns into a real stupid place, often times determining the outcome of the game.

Edited by Crinus, Feb 10 2012, 05:09 PM.
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{KN}NoobieDoobieDoo
Member Avatar
Commander
Well, some very good points by both of you. Thank you.

I personally do not like either the Last Stand or TI perk.

I find that I absolutely love a under barrel tube launcher in HC which is probably one of the most griped about items in the game. lol

If I find a HC server that does not allow it I simply will not play there.

And, I won't EVEN go into my play style in Nuke. B)

That being said...

Our policy has always been to allow ALL weapons and perks.

I try to keep in mind that no matter which perk/s you chose you also close out a choice of two other good perks in that category.

IMHO
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{KN}You're Damn Skippy
Member Avatar
KN Nerd
Well said brother.

We have not limited any perk, weapon, class, or killstreak in Black Ops. We will continue on with the way things are set up at this time.

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Crinus
Sergeant
[ *  *  *  * ]
I will look more into this TI thing in CTF.

I was spawning at about 7 sec intervals on occasions and nothing more than that.
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{KN}Ono N.A.
Member Avatar
Lt. Colonel
My 2 cents.... worth a whole lotta nothin, but leave things. There are certain things that I complain about, but I like to be able to set up my classes as I see fit. It's in the game (as manufactured) and should be allowed, I personally can't stand servers that limit the use of certain weapons/ attachments or tactics and/ or playing style (ie. Hopping, using sights, blah, blah..)

I won't obstain from playing in servers that don't allow SC, but I won't play in most "Tactical" servers. And as far as "Polite and Freindly Crouch" servers... forget about it.
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Crinus
Sergeant
[ *  *  *  * ]
Normally I am one that says dont limit anything, never have liked servers where things were limited.

But it has come to a point where a couple things just need to go in order to balance out this game, especially this late in its life.

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{KN} Rigger
Brigadier General
I have let Metal know that we do not limit our servers.
I agree with that.

I thank you all for your comments and think that it is a good thing to address issures brought up by non member, I also like to hear how you Members feel about the games perks as it helps me get a little better at playing the game. (I would really like to hear what perks seem to work best for you).

:pbnj:
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Crinus
Sergeant
[ *  *  *  * ]
Well being I think Call of Duty is a game so driven off the Recon Map with UAV (as in it becomes too much of an important thing in any COD game and becomes almost the only reason someone gets kills) I try to use nothing but a stealth setup with Ghost Pro, Sleight of Hand or Hardened Pro, and Ninja Pro, your wep needs to be suppressed also, Kill streaks are Counter Spy Plane, Heli, and Dogs. Thats my setup.

But it also depends on the map, maps like Nuketown, Firing Range, and on occasions Summit and Crisis I bring out the Flak Pro, Ninja Pro, Sleight of Hand pro, with a GL attachment because grenades on these maps become quite spammy. You just about cant be caught on these maps without Flak Jacket Pro, even though at the risk you on UAV, but I still run counter spy plane so that helps some what. Usually in demolition I find myself having to run flak setup.

But I also believe what works for one may not work for another. My Motto is, die less = less power the enemy has in completing objectives because you cant even count on the spawn system in this game.


As for the other stuff, Claymore so I can claymore my backside so I wont get shot in the back, I use gas to gas objectives or choke points (no pun), and the usual frag (not semtex). Frags travel longer distance and harder to spot than a red flashing semtex.

I am a distance fighter and not Close Quarter Battle fighter, not like I use to be and thats because in KN server, my 100-110 ping wont allow Close Quarter Battle fights to be won too much. So I use the Assault Rifles like Commando and M16 as a distance weapon over Famas, Galil, all those other ones including the the Ak47.



Edited by Crinus, Feb 11 2012, 03:11 PM.
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Metal
Private First Class
[ * ]
Hi,

I'm sure you guys would agree this is what a forum is for, healthy discussion. No harm being up a point to be discussed.

Crinus, I've been playing with 200ish ping and I always try to take an aggressive style in my playing, favoring closer range shots and at times doing long shots. UAV is just but one killstreak. I tend to run napalm, chopper gunner and dogs as well as un-silenced weapons. Killing 1-2 players and switching out your position would work. I pay a lot of attention to minor details which would help you to identify enemies (gun muzzle flash, the 'click' from enemy's reload, different footstep sounds based on the ground they're on, gun barrel sticking out of cover, and of course the minimap). I still get generally good scores every game. The only way to win an objective game is to play the objective. For example, if I could rush quickly and lay down pressure on the other team, my team could get a free cap on the B flag. Once I get B I usually lay a spawn trap. A lot of players camp and think they would get better kdrs and scores. It just creates an effect where the spawn trap on their team just gets worse and worse and culminates into high killstreaks. Most maps have a definite spawn pattern. You get bad spawns occasionally, but mostly the patterns can be read and interpreted. You can see this is a true by checking your theater and viewing the entire map from a top down approach. MW3's spawn is just worse than Black Op's spawn. I had a game where I did a triple kill and all of them spawned a few meters behind me.

My main issue with second chance is that players are 'rewarded' at times for being downed and yet able to get a kill (also you can't kill the player till he goes fully down, which is a total waste of ammo). Its your server so I understand your decision. It does get irritating when half of the other team uses it, or if someone takes a M60 and spams through walls from his spawn with second chance. If he gets downed he gets revived most of the time and resume blind firing. If the devs said it was a mistake bringing it into a game, I'm sure it means something.

(This is not related to my point on second chance by the way) While having non restricted play is fine, there are definitely things that the developers miss out. Think of the tubing issues, g18 akimbo, one man army, commando, ump in MW2. Same for the FMG9, MP9 akimbo, Type 95 in MW3 which were later patched. You give something good to players, they'll just abuse it. Would a game of Call of Duty be fun if players are all using akimbo overpowered weapons on you?

That said, here is my loadout if anyone is interested. This was the loadout I used in the game where I had my best domination score, a 172-11 game.

Primary: Ak47 Extended Mags
Secondary: Ballistic Knife (its pretty useless at times due to my ping, but I could fire it and clear campers or save me when I have no ammo which happens a lot of times in games. Otherwise I'm running with an Ak)
Concussion Grenades
Claymore
Semtex
Flak Jacket Pro
Sleight of Hand Pro
Marathon Pro

I have other primary weapons but the kits remain the same other than that. I use Ak47 primarily: Ak74u Rapid Fire, Enfield Extended Mags, Commando Extended Mags, Famas Extended Mags.

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Crinus
Sergeant
[ *  *  *  * ]
Quote:
 
The only way to win an objective game is to play the objective.


My way of playing an objective though may not be playing an objective according to some players.

But the team benefits from it, especially if they are wanting experience points.

Say in Domination we own A and B, I am going to camp the hell out of B keeping the other team off of it. Some games I may have 1-2 captures and 10 defends from it.

CTF 95% of the time I am defending our flag and hope my team has an offense to cap some flags, you be surprised how many times I had to fight off the enemy from returning a flag, I could go the distance and pick it up, but more than 50% chance I am shot and I rather keep the enemy grounded and put into spawn rotation so my team can catchup to cap that flag.

SnD, Demolition, I play those objectives to the fullest with planting and defusing. SnD I often set back though for a while to be the last 1-2 guys standing and forcing the enemy out into my sights first.

So really my objective playing involves keeping the enemy away from the objective so it will give my team not only many chances to win, but gain that experience needed if they want it. Its all about winning.
Edited by Crinus, Feb 14 2012, 06:56 PM.
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{KN}PugsDaHunter
Member Avatar
Commander
Up front, I did not even read past the first sentence in either posts discussing the reasoning. Listen, almost every single perk people bitch and complain about in cod. It get's old fast. That said I am open for discussion and yes this is what forums are for but when we talk about taking away perks, that's a slippery slope because like I said many cod players bitch about almost every perk, what are we supposed to do have a serious discussion on every single perk used in the game...nope. We have always allowed all perks weapons and game styles and unless something drastically is wrong with a perk or default game option I don't see us picking and choosing perks that we allow. Maybe tomorrow I'll have time to read the above reasons but without reading them I am almost certain it's not gonna be convincing to me at least.

EDIT: 10 seconds after I wrote the above comment, I could not help myself and read Metal's points. Like I thought, none of the concerns even remotely make me change my mind, not even close. It's part of the game, just like tubes(which people also botch about A LOT) and there is no valid argument for removing it from the servers. And let's hypothetically say there is a valid argument for removing it, then you must admit that others perks will have to be up for discussion also...just like I said slippery slope, one that you don't want to go down. Email the game developers, if they get enough emails they simply won't add that perk into the upcoming games, that's the best method if your truly opposed to last stand.
Edited by {KN}PugsDaHunter, Feb 14 2012, 11:01 PM.
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Metal
Private First Class
[ * ]
Well, what you're describing is pretty much playing the objective.

As for the perk, I brought it up for constructive discussion, whether or not what I suggested was implemented. You said that almost every single perk people bitch and complain about. I disagree. Second chance was bad because the player was invulnerable while he was falling to the ground. Matyrdom, OMA, Danger Close, Commando was removed. To some extent they were indeed warping game play. Should players expect every single enemy he kills to drop a live grenade? Should players get 'teleport' knifed from a distance that is 300% of a normal knife range? Tubes were bad in mw2 because there was OMA and danger close in MW2. Were they that good in Black Ops? Flak Jacket easily made tubing terrible in Black Ops.

Developers are human, they make mistakes so putting blind faith in them isn't the best idea. Why was Matyrdom, Second Chance, Dead Man's Hand frowned upon? They basically give the chance for players to get cheap (and to an extent, undeserving) kills even after receiving fatal damage.

Case in point: Akimbos (FMG9 in particular) were so clearly overpowered in MW3 and game warping that they were patched more than once. Would you have banned them pre-patch because they were so clearly overpowered and was affecting the way players play the game? Would you have done so if the average marginal increase in enjoyment for players is higher? I'm not asking anyone to reconsider their decision (which I fully respect), but asking a hypothetical question instead.

For players who never played MW3, FMG9 Akimbo is a secondary weapon, 36 rounds a mag, insane rate of fire, high damage, small crosshairs with high accuracy while akimbo. Basically you could still kill multiple players at a distance. Note this was the FMG9 pre-patched.

Quote:
 
Call of Duty: Black Ops game design director David Vonderhaar admits that the "Second Chance" perk was a mistake and that he regrets the decision to include it.

The perk allows players who have received fatal damage to remain alive with a handgun for 10 seconds, before increasing to 30 with a pro variant.

"See that gun to my head in my pic? That's how I feel about 2nd Chance. We meant well. I f***ed up," Treyarch's Vonderhaar Tweeted.

Infinity Ward used a similar perk, Last Stand, in 2009, but removed it for the record-breaking Modern Warfare 3.
Edited by Metal, Feb 15 2012, 03:03 AM.
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Crinus
Sergeant
[ *  *  *  * ]
MW3 was record breaking?

Last Stand have been in COD for a long time, as far back as I can remember at least in COD 4 I think it was there.

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{KN}You're Damn Skippy
Member Avatar
KN Nerd
COD4 was the first appearance of "last stand" at least in PC. I do not play FPS games on console, so I can't speak to COD3.

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Crinus
Sergeant
[ *  *  *  * ]
I played COD 3 on the Wii, I think COD3 was console exclusive and never came to PC.

Not missing much with COD3 though, I dont even think COD3 had online multiplayer.
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{KN}Oddball Marine
Member Avatar
Brigadier General
Some great discussion of perks, load outs, and objective play styles! Good to see so many of you passionate about your game play.. and we feel fortunate as a Clan to have you play in our servers.

With that said.. we will continue to adhere to our basic server rules of allowing all perks and weapons. Until such time that the Clan is informed of a glitch (previous mentioned weapon advantages) or the Clan determines a perk is providing an absolute unfair advantage and collectively we decide to remove that option from gameplay.

However, this does not mean we will not listen to your ideas - in fact I personally enjoy reading your comments and opinions. Please continue to provide us feedback!

Thank you all!
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{KN} B33R_3Y35
Master Gunnery Sergeant
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I will say one more thing on this topic: I started using second chance on occassion as I was frustrated with others using it, and it is a lot of fun. HOWEVER, it gives me a completely unfair advantage. I won't use it all the time, but I wouldn't be upset if it were banned, and I would happily adhere to that rule. If that isn't enough motivation, I don't know what is! ;)
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{KN} Rigger
Brigadier General
I think that I have changed my mind about second chance- IT IS PART OF THE GAME- you just have to ajust to the style of game others play. Make it interesting and shoot to kill.
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{KN} B33R_3Y35
Master Gunnery Sergeant
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Great rigger...I'll be shooting you from my back more often! LOL! :)
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